Amanda Ripley Author of The Unthinkable

jokefest said on November 16, 2010 at 1:01 am

Amanda—I’d be interested to read your response to these critiques of Hanushek’s study and the reporting that has been done on that study.

Also:

Would your fictional recruiter take into consideration that 25% of the world’s top achievers are from the US? To me, that would suggest they would be wise to recruit here first.  If Krashen’s assertion is incorrect, please clarify.

Why no mention of our higher scores in reading and math? I know you say something to the effect that math scores are more reliable for international comparisons but does that mean the other comparisons merit no mention?  Somehow I feel they would have been mentioned if they fit the “public education is in a state of crisisin America” narrative of the day which allows for such bold and jarring blanket proclamations as “Our kids are not winning” in the education wold’s “race to the top” of standardized test scores.

Please convince me and other readers that your journalism is not agenda driven or concede that it is. It would be refreshing for an education reporter to do so. A thoughtful reaction to why Krashner, Bracey, Ravitch et al. are wrong would be interesting to read.

http://www.schoolsmatter.info/2010/11/another-attempt-to-show-american.html

http://www.schoolsmatter.info/2010/11/are-we-bad-in-math-probably-not.html

Also, the third piece below is on Davis Guggenhein’s misreading of NAEP cut scores in Waiting for Superman. Could you explain how the NAEP scores were used in this study to do state-to-nation international comparisons?

http://www.schoolsmatter.info/2010/10/ravitch-review-of-wfs-breaks-long.html

I look forward to reading your thoughts.

KoffeeBrown said on November 17, 2010 at 12:28 pm

If everyone that knew their children were going to be the wrong kind of statistic based on the fact they are not properly educated I’m sure parents would be more active in their approach to making other accountable (as teachers & administrators) but in the mean time it feels like they just put on stereo headphones and stop listening to the voices of the people like you that are trying to point out this criminal act…stealing federal money as a so-called teacher and not really teaching our children anything they can use going into the 21 century.

Abdelrahman said on November 22, 2010 at 3:46 am

I think Egyptian kids will win !

they already got marketable skills, if they want to or not !

dave said on December 11, 2010 at 8:32 pm

Since it is a global economy and kids now and more so in the future will likely need to compete on a more global basis this type of reporting will hopefully help to get people to take more action to focus on education. Yes we need better people take an interest in teaching careers but also of course we need more commitment of resources and parental involvement. Thanks for this.

Mary Osborne said on December 21, 2010 at 12:29 pm

I read that you say math scores are better for comparisions, but how much math is needed for the majority of people?  I taught 3 and 4th grade for many years and was told I did a great job with teaching math (arithmetic really) although I had no formal math past high school algebra and geometry.  My husband had very little higher math training except what he needed specifically as a flight engineer in the Air Force.  And he was very good at it.
I believe that the curriculum in the US has really been “dumbed down” in the past 25 years.  I blame parents.  We have many parents from cultures that don’t value education more than what a 16 year old can earn flipping hamburgers.  We also have parents who seem to think that baseball, football, ballet, gymnastics, etc. are more important than education.  Can’t tell you how many times I have heard, ” I didn’t do my homework because I had a baseball game, or football practice or gymnastics practice, or you name it that was more important than school work.”  Students fall asleep in class because they had a late game.  Why do parents allow that to happen??  Also parents don’t want their child to be “stressed”  when they fail to accomplish a task that they known about for 2 weeks , but didn’t start until the night before.  I’m afraid schools have lowered expectations and accountability of the students to placate these parents and to try to keep the reluctant students in school.
Until all (at least most) parents in the US are motivated to be involved in their student’s education and support high expectations from the schools, we will continue to lag behind other countries that value education over athletics and social events.
It’s not more money we need for education except maybe to improve teacher compensation to attract better candidates and keep the talented ones. Also improved teacher training is needed.  An apprentice year under a master teacher could be considered.  Would that be more expensive? Probably, but better than throwing a new teacher out on his/her own.  I’ve known potentially good teachers who changed career because their first year was so chaotic.

Amanda said on December 22, 2010 at 11:22 am

Thanks for your thoughtful post, Mary. Math skills are a very good predictor of future income, it turns out, and the jobs of the future will require higher math skills than people have needed in the past. Even factory jobs now require some degree of math literacy, since the simplest jobs are now done by computers.

I’d say the most common refrain I get in emails and posts about education has to do with parental involvement. There seems to be a widespread consensus that American parents do a horrible job prioritizing education in the home. I haven’t seen any hard evidence of this (please let me know if you have!), but the belief is so widespread among teachers that I believe there is truth to it.

So then the question becomes, what can we do about this? Why aren’t parents motivated to be involved in their students’ education? I’ve seen this vary quite a bit from school to school, so there are clearly things that principals and teachers can do to change these incentives. (In some schools, principals and teachers routinely call home to check in—even when nothing is wrong—and they find that this tends to increase parental engagement, particularly since a lot of low-income parents say they are intimidated by schools and may need that extra push.) But what else can be done?

In many high-performing countries, kids need to pass a rigorous test in order to graduate from high school. So there are real stakes for them in the classroom. (They don’t need to use their imagination to see how important education is.) But we’ve seen cases of this working—and not working—in the U.S., and it’s not clear to me why that is. Certainly, the test needs to be good, and the schools need to be strong to prevent kids from getting discouraged and giving up.

I totally agree about the importance of better teacher training—including an apprenticeship. I don’t think that would be more expensive necessarily. Again and again, teachers report that they wish they had had more practical, hands-on training in ed school; why doesn’t this change?

—Amanda

Flo Law said on January 01, 2011 at 10:08 am

In N.C. we were criticized by elementary teachers because we had our kids to 15 minute math drills twice a day every day as putting pressure on our kids. When we were in special academically gifted school programs (only gotten in by lottery ) it was the opposite. Teacher is mixed ability classrooms complained our kids were bored- in advance ability classes we were reminded to tutor our kids! Love our advanced classes because now our kids are in college and have a future. ALWAYS ignore the teachers who have a limited understanding of the bigger picture- do not expect teachers to go beyond the program that a particular school has been given to teach.

Mary Osborne said on January 07, 2011 at 5:39 pm

After giving your response a lot of thought, I believe that the jobs of the future will use computer applications, but training in the use of those applications will probably not involve a great deal of higher math skills on the part of the user. Office workers use Excel but don’t necessarily need to know the reason for the use of a certain formula.  They just know that in this certain circumstance a certain preprogramed formula is used.  Programmers, engineers, chemists and many other careers do need higher math I agree, but not the vast majority of workers.
Actually I feel a much stronger need for consumer math.  What’s the best buy at the grocery store? Large size, Small size? Which brand? What is the true cost of having an automobile? Lease Or buy?  What’s the true cost of having a house? Rent or own?  How to tell if you can afford to buy an item.  How do mortages work? What is compound interest?  What is the cost of credit?  The list could go on and on, but I feel most young people are sadly lacking in knowledge in this area.  Yes. I think the parents should be doing this, but I wonder if many are any better informed than their children.

Kim Pries said on January 20, 2011 at 1:20 pm

I saw some criticism of the Hanushek, et al. study that pointed to the use of percents. The authors of the study correctly used percentage values to normalize the data between countries. While the Hanushek study may not be conclusive it is certainly suggestive.

Cedar Riener said on January 25, 2011 at 12:00 am

I agree with jokefest that I would love to see your response to some of the criticism of your article and Hanushek’s research. It is curious to me that you have responded to Mary, but not to jokefest, Krashner, Ravitch, or any of the thoughtful comments on the article’s page (ok, there are plenty that aren’t very thoughtful).
Ultimately, I think some of the details of the debate may be over your head, for example, Rothstein’s econometric criticisms of Hanushek’s methodology, or the fine differences between PISA and NAEP, or between a correlation and a partial correlation. But that is totally understandable for a journalist not to have a graduate background in statistics or educational research methodology. What is not understandable is the fact that you seem to avoid trying to synthesize the two opposing views, of Hanushek and his detractors, instead presenting Hanushek’s work as if it is beyond reproach. It is especially odd to me that you do this, along with winking that he was once a minority view:
“Historically,” he says, “reporters call me [when] the editor asks, ‘What is the other side of this story?’”

Now he is given the only story? What changed?
I am not really that disappointed with Hanushek. He has been more of an ideologue than a disinterested academic for a long time, and his sponsorship by the Hoover Institution and other affiliations help announce this. And I don’t mean to be overly harsh here, but what I am disappointed in is your journalism, and that of your editors. I understand that this is only with the best intentions, and I have no doubt that you have been in many many classrooms, and feel strongly about how to fix the problem. But your pieces on Rhee, and this one on Hanushek are thinly veiled op-ed’s, and they should be labeled as such, rather than profiles, or science writing.

khaled said on January 26, 2011 at 5:13 am

I hadn’t realised how bad our performance was in the UK in comparison to other countries. It really makes you think where are we heading with all the education cuts we have seen in the last year. We should be investing our future as a country and that starts with Education for future generations and not just for the rich.

Adriaan Venter said on June 01, 2011 at 2:21 am

I am working with Americans and am surprized at their lack of knowledge about their own country. In general they still do not believe the USA has finacial problems; they think everthing is absolutely fantastic; asking them about the floods, crime, etc. and they just shrug their shoulders.
You thru GOD out of your country and wonder why all the calamities? Are you an illiterate nation, maybe brainwashed, maybe somebody is feeding you food / water that takes away your ability to reason / understand; etc. Now your beloved Mr. President wants to kick and shove Israel…keep on with that and your USA is heading straight down the sewage.Obama leads the USA thru the O-bum-ah. I am a Boere South African of the old Apartheid South Africa, visited and studied in the old right minded US of A (1981 to 1986) and found it then a wonderful country. Now you guys have a tsunami like problem; God is going to demolish your nation and your beautiful country if you do not reinstate Him in His rightful honorary position and make Him
your Alpha & Omega. Stop courting Saudi and other Arabs; the USA has more tahn enough oil and gas. Stop sponsoring your murderers. If any country threatens the USA, hit them hard and fast. (Iran) Get the hell out of Afganistan, Irak etc. and use the money to start producing and paying back the trillions debts. e.g. China etc. He who borrows becomes the SLAVE of the one borrowed from. WAKE UP!!!!

zara said on December 18, 2011 at 7:18 am

Actually I feel a much stronger need for [url=”
consumer]http://www.montagueblog.info”]consumer[/url] math.  What’s the best buy at the grocery store? Large size, Small size? Which brand? What is the true cost of having an automobile? Lease Or buy?  What’s the true cost of having a house? Rent or own?  How to tell if you can afford to buy an item.  How do mortages work? What is compound interest?  What is the cost of credit?  The list could go on and on, but I feel most young people are sadly lacking in knowledge in this area.  Yes. I think the parents should be doing this, but I wonder if many are any better informed than their children.